The rise of atheism in Pakistan
Counter-extremism expert, Ghaffar Hussain catches up with 'Hazrat Nakhuda' - founder of the 'Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics' Facebook group
An increasing number of young Pakistani’s are adopting Atheism and openly questioning the existence of a God. Many analysts have attributed this trend to the rise of Islamist militancy in Pakistan as well as access to social media and other technological tools that allow people to share and explore new ideas.
A Facebook group called ‘Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics’ was launched a few months ago and has already attracted over 800 members. I caught up with the founder of this group, a young Pakistani Technologist operating under the pseudonym ‘Hazrat Nakhuda’, in order to discuss this new phenomenon.
Ghaffar: What inspired you to launch the Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics group?
Hazrat Nakhuda: Atheist groups and movements are a global trend. PAA is a part of that but it is different. The problem is that most of the groups for freethinkers are in secular countries. In my view the battle for reason, rationality and freethinking doesn’t need to be fought (with urgency) in England, Holland or Canada. It is here, in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where we need to fight the battle for reason. It is here where the battle will be the most hard-hitting, it is here where reason needs to triumph, and it is here where we can’t afford to lose.
Almost every Muslim-majority country is under-developed economically or socially. I believe that when a religion is adopted by a state it stifles progress. Pakistanis are running 40,000 Madrasas but 30 percent of the children under the age of 5 are malnourished.
We missed our millennium goals to eradicate polio because we couldn’t run the refrigerators that housed the vaccine, but we spent a fortune on the ‘Islamic bomb’.
This country would praise Mumtaz Qadri (the murderer of Salman Taseer), and yet marginalize the only Nobel laureate of the country because he was from minority sect.
If you want to see how much a hindrance religion can be in the progress of a nation, look at Pakistan.
G: What led you to questioning religion and ultimately becoming an Atheist?
HN: I was an Islam Apologist. The thing that got me started was the idea that the reason I was a Muslim was simply because I was born into a Muslim Family.
The nerve to claim one specific religion and one specific God out of hundreds as the real God, and rejecting all others merely because ones parents asserted so, seemed too presumptuous.
That is when I started rejecting and accepting ideas based on arguments rather than scripture. Once you start doing that, it is only a matter of time.
G: Is your approach ontological, scientific or more political?
HN: Initially it was ontological. Now it is more political and scientific.
G: How open are you about your view and your activities in Pakistan?
HN: Within my circle of friends I am very open. My family knows I don’t believe in God but they don’t know that I am in a leading role in such an organization. Obviously I use a pseudonym that alone should tell you how open I can be.
G: Would you say Atheism is on the increase in Pakistan?
HN: It is on the rise. Not as much as I hoped to but it is on the rise. There is a huge amount of closet atheists in Pakistan. For every member of the organization I get an email from five others telling me that they want to join but can’t.
G: And why do you think it’s on the rise?
HN: Why is it on the rise? Well if I had to put forward what I see as the most pertinent reason, it would have to be the internet and social media. We are connected like nothing else. A boy in a small town outside Lahore can watch a lecture by Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan and Christopher Hitchens. Ten years ago it wasn’t that easy.
Another reason is the fact that Pakistanis are obsessed with trying to prove to the world that Islam is right. When people like that go to online forums to debate other people they get asked questions that, as a born Muslim, they don’t ask themselves.
G: What is the profile of your average member?
HN: The majority of the members are young, between the ages of 16 and 32. Most of them are urban Middle class and Educated; doctors, engineers, computer programmers, lawyers, business persons, artists, and so on. Most of the members also tend to be from the three major cities: Lahore, Karachi & Islamabad.
But we have people from as far away as FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas). There is also a huge overseas Pakistani population. Interest areas range from politics, economics to domestic issues.
G: What kind of response have you had from Pakistani Muslims?
HN: So far it is encouraging. But there is the odd individual who expresses his desire to behead me.
G: How much of this trend is attributable to political events and the rise of Islamist militancy in the region?
HN: The rise of Islamist militancy has made more ‘closet’ atheists ‘come out’. Has it made more people in Pakistan become atheist/agnostics? No it hasn’t. It has in some cases put people on the path to questioning their own faith but not to abandoning it. I find that almost all people abandon faith because of scientific and philosophical arguments rather than geo-political events.
G: How has social media and the internet aided your work?
HN: It is the backbone of everything we do. It is how members interact with each other. All this started out on forums and groups on the social media.
G: What are your plans for the future?
HN: Right now most Pakistanis aren’t even aware that there is an option to not believe in God; they don’t question the existence of God and generally don’t believe that Atheists exist. What is more, according to a Gallup poll, 78 percent of Pakistanis believe that a person who leaves Islam should be killed. And finally, Pakistan has very strict blasphemy laws. If I get to change these three things in my life time, I would die a happy man.
Ghaffar Hussain is a leading independent counter-extremism expert
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I applaud the courage of those willing to declare their atheism in Muslim countries. It seems very foolish for any religion which is confident it is right and true to suppress the open exchange of ideas.
I have always believed that there is NO religion which is greater than the truth, and all available evidence points to no deities being real. Nonetheless the universe is a wondrous place, with mysteries aplenty for us to ponder and pontificate over.
"Hazrat Nakhuda" means Definately no god.
There is hope for Pakistan yet.
"It seems very foolish for any religion which is confident it is right and true to suppress the open exchange of ideas."
Islam is NOT confident - it's permanently on the brink. That's why it operates the way it does. Islam is all about the very tight control of information, not just to its followers, but especially with non-muslims. Any deviation from this tight information management results in blow-ups, often quite literally.
I consider myself to be a Pakistani but I was born and have lived most of my life in the UK, it is so refreshing to see fellow atheists from my country of origin. I respect them a lot as I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be an atheist in a majority Islamic country that is so intolerant of anyone who goes against their beliefs.
This is very difficult to declare one self that he ?she is an atheist in this country especially in my part of Pakistan. If i openly say that i don't believe in GOD then i will not only be isolated from my family but they will tear me like bloody hounds.
The nerve to claim one specific religion and one specific God out of hundreds as the real God, and rejecting all others merely because ones parents asserted so, seemed too presumptuous.
I thought Islam said that all "followers of a holy book" (I.e Christians, Jews etc.) were acceptable? Allah isn't distinct from God, Yahweh etc. don't get me wrong, you have every right to be an atheist, but I don't think you're being fair here.
I am glad to see that logic and reason can make its way to the middle east and not just be repudiated. You're all very brave for expressing veracity, the truth will prevail.
Well done guys, may you flourish, prosper and grow, grow and GROW!
Great interview, inspiring stuff from a very brave individual! Keep up the good work Hazrat :)
Atheism or no atheism, Islam is dangerous and has messed up the neighborhood around Pakistan and the world. The whole world needs to work towards deIslamizing Pakistan immediately.
I wish you continued success Hazrat. Whilst the "Arab Spring" has started to bring democracy to new areas, a movement to bring rationality and secularism will be the real leap forward for mankind.
People all over the world are breaking from the religious grasp, and taking control of their own lives by thinking for themselves. What a wonderful part of history to be alive to witness.
brave dude but it took similarly brave people to break catholicism's stranglehold in europe so more power to him. Hopefully someone will speak out at the fanatical christianity that the US seems to be fermenting these days.
"I believe that when a religion is adopted by a state it stifles progress"
Just think where the US could be by now ....
"other technological tools that allow people to share and explore new ideas."
New? ... We're all born atheist as were our fathers and our father's fathers right back through home erectus, habilis and way on back to tiktalik and our gilled cousins. Atheism isn't new. World domination by spiritual fascism is new, atheism is just the default.
"If you want to see how much a hindrance religion can be in the progress of a nation, look at Pakistan"...and Iran, Afghanistan and pretty much the whole muslim world.
It is fantastic to see the rise of atheism in Pakistan and I congratulate the Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics on providing a voice of reason in their country. Atheist Alliance International is proud to have the Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics a member.
good luck hazrat! and please be careful....these nutters' priorities are completely "ulta"......we need to get the masses to be more tolerant of difference as a first step!
May your struggle be fruitful and we put the the jahil imams to rest forever.
I am afghan, but I was raised in Spain. AND I DONT BELIEVE IN ANY GOD.
Islamism is worst than nazism. Support secularism for the Muslim World, people.
Hats off, my friend. You make me feel proud. All the best for the great work you're doing.
I hope the PAA won't need as much time as it took us Europeans to shake of the yoke of religious superstition, hats off indeed. Being without faith is pretty easy up here. The internet does enable us to make progress, if we want to. Some people, of course, use it to read their holy stuff; they should extend their reading material a bit.
Ghaffar Hussain's report on Hazrat Nakhuda is inspiring. I have always believed that the west has done a great disservice to the emerging nations by not standing uniformly behind 'secularism before democracy'. Our conservative politicians are to blame for the agonizing and unnecessarily painful emergence of modern civilization globally. We own a great debt to the heroic people who struggle on their own without any help from western people living in great safety and abundance.
Excellent move, at beginning it seems tough & hard but some on have to act as first drop of rain on barren land. I am confident enough and I hope that some they will join us..........Please keep trying........
Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one
Pramod....Nakhuda also means the rower of a boat...:-) from PAA member
I can't think of any people I respect more than those prepared to spread reason in unreasonable times. And I don't think you could get much more unreasonable than Pakistan today, and its cruel legal and social brutality to anyone deviating from a narrow definition of 'proper'.
800 members out of a population of 200 MILLION people living in Pakistan. Can you say "nonstory".
While I am not an atheist (more of an agnostic), I have deep admiration for "Hazrat Nakhuda's" courage and sense of urgency. I'm an American so I don't know a great deal about Pakistan's history, but I know enough to see just how far it has fallen from the liberal secular state imagined by Jinnah.
The answer to islam isn't atheism, it's Jesus. And not because one may be born into cultural christianity.
It is not all religions that hinder progress. What you think God is like makes all the difference. A good (He LOVES you), wise and all-powerful God who purposes to bless you AND WANTS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU (unlike Islam) creates a optimistic expectation. You look for a better future. You do not elevate a 7th century time and practice as the ideal. Read the Bible to see the God who is all of this and more. Also read the book "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark to see how this has already been seen in history. How did those Brits, French, Spaniards and Dutch come to dominate the world? They didn't have large populations or great resources or strategic placement. What they did acquire was an expectation of blessing that drew them out of their centuries of living in mud and wattle huts. They started inventing things and looking for new ways to do things because, after all, didn't God want to bless them? They started exploring because they expected blessing on the other side of the horizon from a GOOD God.
I'll stop now. I could go on.
Well brother Nakhuda, I agree with every word you said. The thing is what you are calling atheism is actually "the islam" in my opinion. All of the scientific and social bases you might have are supported by islam. You seriously dont need to NOT believe in GOD. This is acually GOD has asked us to do all of that. (with the exception of non existance of god of course). The problem is that the contemporary explanation of relegion and islam we have right now is not right. I do not want to question your belief. I am not saying why did u do that. Just if u read islamic history, the unbiased one, read the old transcripts, visit the places where islam flourished in its peak time. Look at them even with your own perspective, not with what people tell you about these days. You will be astonished to see that reality is exaclty the same as you want it right now. I am saying this bcz I had the same feelings in the last 3 years, I reached the same conclusions as you did. When I told my dad and uncle they said what I said above. that is: [contemporary atheism + God = Islam as a matter of fact] while [contemporary Islam = Lot of useless crap(bullshit) + God(only useful part)]
Hazrat Sahib,
I am stating the obvious, but please take care of yourself. Jihadists have killed people for much less than simply starting an athiest Facebook group.
Practice good operational security.
Well done. I only wish someone can put an end to the mindless ritual of child genital mutilation that goes on in muslim countries. While girls are protected these days under a UN mandate the same laws neglect the boys and they are fair game for religions such as Islam and Judaism that require they be mutilated without consent in order to please their god. Well, if this is the sort of obedience their god demands, perhaps its time to go look for another god.
To Hazrat Nakhuda
Many congratulations, keep your head down and much success to you.
Mark,the British, French, Spanish and Dutch dominated the world because we had better ships and bigger guns. Nothing to do with any imaginary gods!
Ian, Why did they have better ships and bigger guns? Europeans aren't smarter than other people. Their expectations of an improved life experience changed because they got a God who was actually active ("Living God") good, wise, and had they power to do what He promised. Again, read Rodney Stark's "The Victory of Reason" for the best presentation. Not quite 20 years ago the Chinese gov't. itself commissioned a group of scholars to look into this. "How did those europeans way out on the edge of the world, without larger populations or greater resources come to dominate the world?" The inescapable answer they came to was...Christianity. None of these scholars, so far as we know, was a christian. What they saw was that a grasp of the Biblical God set Europeans free in their thinking and expectations. The same thing is possible for Muslims/Hindus/animists/etc. if they simply get God (who He is and what He is like right). I'll stop now. I could go on.
@Mark Rylander: It is ridicoulus to claim that Christianity has not held back progress. It has, and it does. Your grasp on history must be very weak. Christianity has been the reason of countless wars, destruction and loss of life - just like Islam. Scientifically you can look up f.ex. Galileo or Darwin. Slavery and suppression of womens rights are supported by Christianity - and again Islam. Only the enlightenment ultimately undermined the use of slaves in the west. If Christianity is so great then why did it take 1800 years to rediscover democrazy? Why did it take 1900 years for women to get somewhat equal rights? 2000 years for homosexuals to get some acceptance? Science is still regularly under fire from religious people just because they don't loke the facts of reality. No, the only world worth fighting for is a secular world, where religion is without power and people keep any unfounded beliefs - like the existence of Yahweh or Allah - to themselves.
For most of its history Christianity had the exact same awful influence on the societies it permeated as Islam does today. I am not saying that either faith is bad, faith is generally a good thing, religious dogma is where I find the problems. Christianity is older than Islam, and many of its adherents have become fed up with the centuries of war/disease/hate that strict religious dogma and following so called religious leaders has brought to society. That is why the wingnuts of Christianity are not as close to the forefront of Western Society as the nutjobs in Islam are in Middle Eastern society. Hopefully as time goes by more and more Muslims will come to see that their religious leaders are just as fallable as the rest of humanity and stop being lead towards failure by the zealots. It took Christianity 1700+ years to reach this point, lets hope you Muslims are quicker on the uptake to get your crap together than Christians were.
@Mark Rylander
I completely disagree with you. Europe rose to such technological heights so fast because of 1000+ years of constant war after the fall of Rome. With society fractured into small nations and city states, the different principalities of Europe raced for centuries to have the best weapons and ships. Even though Europeans had guns and advanced ships, Western Medicine was arguably behind Eastern Medicine until around the time of the American Civil War.
China and Japan on the other hand enjoyed centuries of peace after ruling parties established empires and put a strict freeze on society. Without endless fighting, there was not the drive to improve military technology that in turn lead to other developments beneficial to society.
Want to know why whities were so far ahead of everyone else military wise in the 18 and 1900s? Because all we did was kill each other from 476 til then.
Jews,Christians, Moslems or whatever - it is not about gods and beliefs, it is about power and control. Rabbis, priests and preachers, ayatollahs are all in competition with that other class of power seekers: Politicians. The first power seekers were the witch doctors and shamans and now they are jealous of the secular politicians and fighting to remain 'relevant'.
Atheism is non-belief, both religious and poltical. Be your own god.
Pramod ... we believe on one GOD and u think we are losing hope?? how many gods an Indian believes on?? I bet u also don't know all the names ... seriously u Hindus are all jokers ... 800 out of a 200 million population ... ha ha .. this is seriously a joke ...
Khurram - firstly, Pakistan does not have 200 million people, it has 187 million, so no need for the exaggeration. Secondly, not all of Pakistan's population is aware of this group, only a small minority are. Thirdly, not all Pakistani's have acces to the internet. Forthly, not all those that do have access to the internet use Facebook. Fifth, not all Atheists in Pakistan who use facebook feel comfortable joining such a group due to the fanatical nature of most Muslims in that country.
So your points are completely nonsensical.
The guy running this group is a legend. Keep up the good work.
People need to put it in perspective. Since we began writing things down, there have been over 10,000 gods thought up. What makes anyone think Yawah, Allah or Jesus are any different? They're just another Sun or Moon god on the conveyor belt of faith. The sooner the worlds population is woken up from this slumber the better.
Utterly inspirational! Pakistani atheists, bravo to all of you courageous people! Easy as it is to spread the word in western countries, I cannot imagine the risk you guys are (hopefully NOT) exposed to. I stand in awe but also enormously heartened. Islam covers many different beliefs but what they all have in common (and with many other faiths) is belief in the absurd and the ensuing 'right' to brutalise others who disagree.
I'm a 17 year old atheist pakistani. It's sad to see that this country has become the butt of every joke. People are naive, they believe Pakistani's are bad, simply because of the fact that they are Pakistani. Truly, it is religion and cultural backwardness that corrupts the mind. Spread knowledge amongst everyone and you'll see we're all the same.
Those who are saying it is only 800 people, please remember that coming out as an atheist facebook means coming out in front of the family friends and others too. In a country like Pakistan, it is a very bold thing to do. Respect their courage.
A harrowing few years is ahead for all pakistani athiests- we must argue for reason and rationality at every turn while trying to protect the things we find important (family, society, culture etc...). We may not even be appreciated in this life span or even the next- but eventually people will look back and say these people were the ones thinking about humanity and the future of the human race as a whole before anyone.
Please keep up the great work and don't discourage in the face of disparity. You are more of an inspiration to us than you know.
I am so happy to see that this is developingh into a full blown decent conversation, i must congratulate Ghaffar on his novelty and the gent who goes by the name of Hazrat. Finally people including testosterone flaming and estrogen flaring youth are using their heads for a change and developing a conscious thought (Cogito ergo sum)finally. As far as the atheism in Pakistan is concerned, 1970 and ahead were the years when we saw this change due to the so called radicalisation of Islam, but they were in the thousands then, so if we have a sprinkling of salt on the chapati(to create flavor) the more the merier,i say. whatever you do just remember that Denial is the first step in acceptance in plain arabic (its the La Ilah) part of the shahadah ;), so flame on gals and guys, may the right path be yours. MY SINCERE WISHES
Just like the invention of the printing press brought enlightenment into the Christian world, the permeation of the internet will bring enlightenment into the Muslim world.
Sorry - I know this is irrelevant but I would like to point out Pakistani's are not Arabs, and nor is it in the Middle East. It is in Asia, different languages and culture etc. It is quite important in our 'quest' for truth - we have a basic idea of what the world map looks like as a starting point...drops our credibility a notch or two otherwise ;)
I suppose only an athiest can be reasoned? I'd enjoy seeing any of you reasoned atheists debate a Christian apologist like Ravi Zacharias. He would kick your butt with reason from one side of the planet to the other(figuratively speaking of course). Peace out.
Is atheism on the rise in Pakistan? Not really but I have seen few. I myself know at least 5 atheists in my group of colleagues. But lets see who these so called atheists are. It happens to be by coincidence perhaps, they all belong to elite class of the society whose parents are deeply indulged in their own professional lives and hangout withing their own circles rather than spending time with children. So what happens is that these kids are left alone only exposed to the internet and western media that supports atheism actively. They have never been told about Islam so they draw their conclusions about muslims based on what media shows(that is terrorism,extremism,etc). This growing wave of atheist only disagrees with religion since they believe it is "uncool" to follow religion. They aren't even true atheists. Out of these 5 people I know, I can only have a healthy debate with 1 of them while rest remain speechless and all they can come up with is why Muslims blow up themselves. Since NO scholar is there to actually talk about Islam, the most common misunderstanding is that no one can pose question on Islam or otherwise they'll be blown up. The logic behind execution is that it is only valid for those Muslims who convert to another belief for sake of money or by force. So even if 'a Muslim' converts to another religion because of unclear guidance, Islam teaches to hold a healthy argument until the misunderstandings are clear. The execution is not the law for non-muslims, since they don't even know about the religion and they 'are' allowed to question. All you need to do is to find a scholar, not a fanatic. I suggest you guys watch Hamza Tzortzis vs Dan Barker debate.It should clear a lot of misunderstandings about Islam, and atleast that is not an 'outdated' belief.
i am giving you challenge that God ( Allah ) is alone and hi exits
I would agree with Mr.Thinker. This is basically the first step. I myself was in this state before moving to the next stage - ila Allah. Our cognitive mechanisms or mental models are so small that they cannot fully grasp the complexity of the nature of relationship between Creater and creation. Consequently, some of us just deny the existence of Almighty. Maturity cause enhancement in cognitive power and ultimately we return to a conclusion that God really exist.
The real point is, there is something wrong with everyone poking their nose into your religion. What is it any Muslim's business if certain people in his country wish to be Atheist (or anything else)? It's bad enough that anyone would be nosy about it - it's worse that people would wish to kill you over it! I would strongly suggest to anyone, Muslim or whatever, just worry about yourself and your own religion - live and let live.
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It is fantastic to see the rise of atheism in Pakistan and I congratulate the Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics on providing a voice of reason in their country. Atheist Alliance International is proud to have the Pakistani Atheists..
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Black golfers, black hockey players. Now this? Arabs have already taken over our cabs and convenience stores. Its like you are spreading reason, STOP THAT. We don't want the world to be skeptical. Us cootie spreading atheists must live up to our stereotypes like every other race and religion.
Stop spreading reason, people might be tempted to think for themselves! What's wrong with theocracy?
Editors' Note: We hope our international readers appreciate your sarcasm!